Merlin's 4G Time Attack Lude

[vtectom]

Now you're just showing off!!

[NafemanNathan]

That's a sexy bit of kit right there How much was it in the end?

[Merlin]

The cheapest I could find it was $660 (£447) delivered plus £60 import tax. And I got it in just over a week. This is one of the only bits I have paid full price for.

[NafemanNathan]

That's less than I thought it would be actually!

[Edson]

Hmmm, nice upgrade Merlin !
Didn't know the purpose for a higher FD, but then I found this:

http://type-r-owners.co.uk/forums/showt ... dification

Perfect explanation.
Keep up !

[Merlin]

Yeah that explains it nice. In his pic it looks like he splurged on the carbon syncros as well. Unfortunatly I have to draw the line somewhere, I didnt get them although I have drooled over them before.

[Merlin]

I still have a huge dilema over what oil to use that will satisfy my gearbox, final drive, and clutch plate LSD

There is conflicting advice from all parties.

Hello Allister,

Thanks for your email. Our final drive can be used with what the
manufacturer recommends for the transmission and as a result, you should
NOT use the KAAZ fluid.

A Honda FWD transmission requires a 10W30 weight oil and KAAZ only has a
"one size fits all" application for their LSD.

It is advised that you use Torco MTF/RTF mix with a Type-F friction
modifier. However, if this is not readily available in your country we
can recommend others based on the available brands that are in your market.

Some more reading on the subject:
http://www.teammfactory.com/articles_gearoil

One of the most commonly brought up questions from our customers is what gear oil to use in their freshly built Honda Transmission. Our reply to this question has always been: DON'T!

'He must be crazy', you are probably thinking, but there is a simple explanation for this answer:

After a comprehensive analysis, we can conclude that a large number of drivers out there use the completely wrong fluid. The lubrication system in the Honda transmission was designed to use engine oil, and this has not been changed for any of their transmissions. What this means is that, in order for the gears, shafts, bearings, hubs/sliders to be lubricated as intended, a low viscosity transmission fluid must be used, regardless of whether it is synchronous engagement or dog engagement.

Basically, you MUST use the correct transmission fluid in a Honda Transmission and should not use a performance gear oil as it is too thick and does more damage than good. Performance Gear Oils also lack the additives necessary for the smooth running of the synchronous engagement system, as well as a lot of them containining chemicals which disintegrate the brass synchro rings. This is not common knowledge because customers are led to believe marketing and/or technical advice related to your typically large hypoid transmissions, NOT your specialist Honda Transmission.

For most cases where the vehicle is an unmodified Street Car, the OEM Honda MTF (Manual Transmission Fluid) is more than adequate. The problem arises when you start putting either higher power or higher rpm shifting through the transmission. Not only must you still keep within the tolerances of the oem lubrication system, you must also protect the transmission from shock loads. Using Performance Gear Oil is the Number 2 Reason (after incorrect installation) that is directly responsible for most transmission failures (i.e the Cause), subsequently leading to a part failure (i.e the Symptom).

Unfortunately, most consumers tend to follow the advice of your so-called 'Performance Specialist' who are only concerned about the symptoms, rather than the cause, and usually end up recommending big-brand (and often expensive) performance gear oils. This is a 100% NO GO on a Honda Transmission. Although GL4 & GL5 Rated Gear Oils contain shock protection additives, they are also too thick for the oem Honda lubrication system. The engagement system (synchronous vs dog) is irrelevant in this case. Lubrication is the key word here.

A basic analogy would be: Oil is your transmissions blood supply and needs to flow smoothly. Clog it up with cholesterol (i.e thick gear oil), and it will have a heart attack. Not enough Iron (i.e shock additives), and it will get anaemic/weak.

Frequently Asked Questions regarding KAAZ Geniune Oils.

How much oil is contained in 1 canister?
Each canister contains 2.0 Liters of oil (2.1 quarts)

What type of base oil is KAAZ's fluid?
Our oils are premium mineral based, we do not recommend synthetic at this time.

Why can't I use synthetic oil for my limited slip differential whether or not it is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive?
When using synthetic fluids, we found during testing minor deposits of film residue on the surface of the clutch discs. This actually causes the friction plates to slip abruptly, translating into more noise and chattering during operational usage. Synthetic fluids may be recommended for rally spec vehicles which see majority of gravel usage common of encountering jumping or uneven terrain, synthetic fluids may aid in slippage to prevent major shock during one wheel contact landing. The initial shock encountered during one-wheel contacts may cause harm to the transmission/differential.

How often should I change out my differential oil?
It depends, our recommendation for street vehicles rarely driven on tracks should be changed every 3,500 to 5,500 miles or every other motor oil change. Racecars may need more or less oil changes, this is dependent on vehicle usage as well. Some general enthusiast may not know that differential oil can sometimes reach temperatures of 350F/180C at which point most oils will breakdown. Once operating temperatures reach this degree, viscosity levels will lower therefore not providing sufficient lubrication for differential operation. Do not be fooled by others suggesting oil's should not be changed for 20,000 miles...like your engine, differential's produce friction and wear, provide your differential a clean and healthy operational environment.

I want thicker or heavier weight oil, is this OK?
"Thicker or Heavier" oils are not necessary benificial. Often, thick or heavy oils may require more energy to work through, and in some cases can increase stress and component fatigue. Usually viscousity levels are designed to work within spec of bearing and component clearances, so make sure your oil is comparable to ensure proper and safe operation.

Does using KAAZ OIL really help and benefit my Limited Slip Differential?
From our past customers, we've always recieved compliments stating after trying other oils, KAAZ Genuine oils have worked the best. A smoother more optimal performance was achieved when compared to other oils. A key element was minimal operational noise and chattering accomplished after using KAAZ Geniune Powertrain Fluids. Customers with front wheel drive applications also noticed better gear feedback when engaged in up-shifting and down-shifting. Reports were also made that transmissions with slight grinds before using KAAZ oil had significantly improved.

Where can I purchase KAAZ Oil?
If you can not source our oil, please visit our online store at: http://www.kaazonline.com/gearoil.html

Kaaz gear oil is apparently too thick while torco transmission fluid is synthetic which the Kaaz apparently does not like. Although there are some post on other forums:

I searched on here for info on what oil to use with my Kaaz LSD and found very conflicting opinions and suggestions so I decided to email Kaaz USA for an answer to this important question. Below is the response I got which seems unbiased and technically informative.


"Hi Sonike,

Thanks for your inquiry.
For use with the Honda transmission, we highly recommend usage of our gear oil or the Torco
RGO 80w90.with the friction modifier they sell for Ford application. Other brand oil will not
harm the unit but from our experience, these two oil works best with our unit. One of the
engineer from Kaaz told us that their oil is already blended with shock absorbing chemical and
friction modifier. They have also tested the Torco brand and we were informed that the
Torco gear oil is as good as the Kaaz oil.
We used to have a customer who raced Honda cars up North few years ago and all they used in their gearbox was our gear oil. They didn't have our lsd unit but they liked our
oil because it gave them good shift feel.

There are many SCCA and USTCC Honda race cars out there with our lsd unit and many
of them uses Redline gear oil. I think many of them uses the 75w90 Synthetic oil.
Synthetic oil can be used but it will normally cause the diff to make more chattering noise.
Synthetic oil will not harm the unit but the transition from lock to slip and then back to
lock occurs more abruptly and hence causes more chatter. The synthetic oil creates a film
over the clutch surfaces and it becomes too slippery. Mineral based oil work better in
this part. It will provide more smooth operation.

The use of Honda recommended gear oil (same as motor oil) will cause premature
wear on the clutch plates or may cause serious damage to the lsd unit. The cost of Torco
oil is about 1/3 of our oil so I think it is pretty affordable and about same price level as
other well known brands.
My recommedation is for you to go on the Honda Tech forums and ask others who race
with our unit. As far as I know, you can use any brand GL5 80w90 gear oil with the
friction modifier (for Ford). Since some oil can damage transmission synchros,
I highly recommend getting on the Forums just to gather negative information on some
oil brand that was used with the Honda gearbox.

Best Regards,
Ray / Kaaz USA"

I will probably go ahead and use the Torco oil until I can verify which gear oils of the same grade are safe to use in a Honda transmission.

Hope this can help anyone else wondering what oil to use.

Comments welcomed.

^^ the Torco RGO 80w90 is a gear oil (thick) rather than a transmission fluid (thin). Torco does do an RTF though which is similar to or approaching OEM viscosity.


One big

[Dino]

Ask Rich. Lol

[Merlin]

I have but he didn't have enough time to give me a definative answer. All I know for sure right now is that I will defo be using pure Kaaz gear oil to brake the LSD in as it is the best to allow the LSD clutch plates to bed in and I wont be hooning around the place. I will be speaking to him soon anyway.

It seems that MFactory arnt worried about the operation of the final drive with Kaaz gear oil, but rather its effect on the rest of the gearbox. @Dino what oil/fluid were you using when your gearbox failed? Something thick?

[nucleustylzlude]

Your gearbox build is making me very jealous! An area I've not touched on my build yet.

Love both updates, and love the info too.

She's gonna be a quick car for the time attack. Can't wait to see it.