Never Ending Story... Prelude race car build.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

Update 15 – Originally Posted Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:27 am

http://preludeuk.forumup.com/viewtopic. ... =preludeuk


Well waddya know.... it's another wee update

As many of you know I kinda started a trend way back in 2004 by removing the power steering on my Prelude to generate more steering feel and weight it up a little.
I wrote a guide for Honda Revs back in the day, also I put the guide up on my Fotopic site and I know quite a few have found it useful for carrying out this mod themselves to their Prelude and in fact other Hondas as well.

Well that guide has now and truly been fully updated - We now have a stage 1 and stage 2 PAS removal
The full written/pictorial guide can be found here - http://buzzinvtec.fotopic.net/c228802.html

******** EDIT - Jan 2012 ********
As Fotopic now seem to be dead I have re-uploaded all the images here - http://imageshack.us/g/840/pasremoval42.jpg/ - I will add captions to the pics at some point. Most of the system removal is fairly self explanatory and the rack internals part is detailed below.

******** END OF EDIT **********



In summary, ever since I first carried out the conversion I vowed I would never go back to having PAS on the Lude especially as a track car. Yes the low speed steering effort was quite high (this was reduced by running a decent amount of neg camber) and yes the mid corner loading might not be everyones cup of tea but the massive improvement in feedback and feel for grip levels more than compensated for the small vices.
Some suggested that the heavier steering would cause issues if the car was in a slide and you needed to apply opposite lock quickly but this proved to simply not be the case...if anything you could feel the slide starting earlier through steering weight change.
Anyway, years on and it's not that uncommon a modification to Preludes, Civics and Integras these days...I've carried out this mod many many times and I think only one person ever sort of regretted it...the rest just simply loved it.

Time for taking things to the next level then.
This was actually on my "to do" list long before I started with this full project but as with all good "to do" lists it never got done

I was keen to see if I could improve the feel even further and also reduce the steering effort just a little. I also absolutely hated the big heavy ugly mess that was the looped PAS lines and the steering rack valve body as seen here





So there was only one thing for it.... set to work with a spare steering rack and modify it to remove the unwanted PAS gubbins and also look at a way of improving the feel / resistance. There would also be the added bonus of shedding some more weight...not that I'm at all obsessed of course

Below is a bit of a summary of the work done, the full explanation and more pics can be found in the guide should you wish to do something similar.

Just as Honda intended. Standard BB4 PAS rack





The next 3 pics show all the main steering rack components laid out to see. Be warned there are a couple of sprung parts and there will be residual oil inside.
If you are unsure how these items come apart you should be able to see clearly from the "rebuilding" pics. Alternatively I suggest you refer to the Honda workshop manual for guidance as I forgot to take pics when stripping it all down










This is the centre of the steering rack itself. This is effectively a piston with hard wearing sealing ring. The pressurised fluid acts on either side of this to assist with the turn. The white band (sealing ring) creates a fluid tight seal in the piston tube. While we still want a "good fit" we don't need a fluid tight seal anymore so some careful filling around the sealing ring will help to reduce drag inside the rack once oiled/greased.






Here you can see that I have merged the two feed and return holes into one slot. This is so that each side of the piston can breathe into the other side when going from lock to lock. This would normally happen to the fluid under pressure through the 4 way valve body but that's gone now.






The steering rack "gearbox", rack, pinion, cylinder and sleeve were all then thoroughly cleaned ready for refitting.






Rack and piston seal greased well ready for refitting. The inside of the "gear housing" has also been well greased.





Rack installed back into gearbox housing and rack tube refitted.






Close up of the gear housing and the pinion holder bearing freshly greased. Note the two lugs in the bottom of the housing. These are stoppers for the pinion shaft holder which has a few degrees of movement to activate the 4 way valve pas fluid direction. This movement won't be acceptable as it will feel like slop in the steering thanks to no spring resistance.





The machined top edges of the pinion shaft holder. This machining allows the pinion to rotate a few degrees to left and right when fitted inside the gear housing. I want to eradicate this movement and also remove the just visible pin which is what used to operate the directional change in the 4 way valve








A good bead of weld was added to the machined faces and then gradually ground down until the pinion shaft holder was a tight fit in the gear housing against the lugs. Rotation eliminated.






The Pinion shaft holder was then greased and refitted into the "gearbox housing". This is then secured with a circlip.







Pinion gear and shaft thoroughly greased as well as the bearings inside the pinion shaft holder. These pics show the shaft on it's way in and then being secured in place with retaining circlip








More grease added to the gearbox assembly and pinion operation tested from lock to lock. Works a treat






Remainder of the gearbox components refitted such as the sprung adjustable rack guide, the pinion seal and pinion seal cover.
Tie rod (rack end) refitted and greased.
Grease added to end of rack and gaitor re-fitted










The weighty 4 way PAS valve and associated parts. These are effectively left over parts now
Note the fabricated ally plate that will be used to seal off the gearbox housing and valve orifices in place of the now redundant valve body






With a thin bead of sealant the finishing plate was then bolted into place. This will prevent both the grease seaping out and of course water/dirt getting in.








The finished lighter and more tidy looking non PAS steering rack. Just by working it lock to lock by hand on the pinion shaft I can already feel it's a definate improvement over the previous set up. Should feel noticable improvements once back in the car too and of course that's a bit more weight saved










And finally a quick comparison of before and after on the car







As usual thanks for looking, any comments, feedback or questions welcomed


Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

Interesting read as always - Removing my PAS too next month to make fitting my SC easier and the other benefits you mention. Not my daily drive any more and want to get her on track more soon sooo...

Was gonna do what you already had, by looping the lines, my ref pic:



This guys build is a joke, just check his sub frame:



However, I have conflicting info from some race guys in the US who say that leaving the fluid in their for lubrication is good but the sealing up of the lines means your still working against the fluid / air left in their. So they say that running the lines to a T connection and to a breather'd reservoir helps keep a fluid level for lubrication and the breather helps the fluid/ air move freely. They say there's is quite a noticable difference. Reference pic:



What do you think Rich?

Sorry to picture spam, but in my reference pics I also remembered I'd saved this, now this is a LHD to rhd CONVERSION!!!

lmao,

why not just have 2 steering wheels, that would be interesting

Nice work Rich

Now stop posting things like this because you're making it harder and harder for me to keep my intention to sell my car

Rich

What's your best time round Castle Coombe?

Just watching TG on Dave

Mercedes B-Class B200 1min 36.06? Faster than that?

What happens when you put brake fluid in the steering rack guide?

Then you then realise brake fluid and PAS fluid aren't the same, and then realised it was suppose to be greased and not full of PAS fluid

Sorting out my spam so it doesn't filter updates to this thread

Nicely thought out their Rich, an engineering mind I like.

Sits awaiting the next fantastic update.

Rich

What's your best time round Castle Coombe?

Just watching TG on Dave

Mercedes B-Class B200 1min 36.06? Faster than that?

I think you'll find the Lude has previously Lapped Coombe at around 1min 17 so yeah, a bit quicker than that

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Feeling like sh1t today so have stayed away from the workshop... not to mention the fact that the missus would have probably been a tad upset about me wanting to spend valentines day with my race car rather than her

Nucleustylz- (sorry I'm s#!t at remembering names...is it Rob?)

Holy chromium plated subframes Batman !!!
In my mind that is just awful but hey if it's a show car then I guess it's each to their own and I'm sure it'll add points. Different strokes and all that.

Just looping the lines is a perfectly acceptable way of junking the PAS and getting all the feedback you could want.
You must make sure though that with all the lines disconnected you work the steering rack from lock to lock to pump out pretty much all the fluid from the rack otherwise it will be overly heavy. Once you've done that and looped the lines there will still be enough residual fluid inside for lubrication.
I think the Yanks are being paranoid (as usual) and leaving the rack full of fluid and then T-ing the lines with the resevoir as a way of reducing steering effort (over a full and sealed rack). Personally I'd say don't overcomplicate things like that as it will still end up being heavier than an empty rack - drain rack, loop the lines...jobs a good un. Don't worry about wear..mine was done way back in 2004 with no adverse effects to wear.

Be sure to keep us updated of your s/charger install

Don't think I'll comment on the RHD conversion


Pete
Thank god you've stepped up and offered your services for the testing and setup of the chassis... was wondering who I'd get to do that for me now that Kris has retired from being a superstar racecar driver
The only snag would be... Bend it and you buy it !! - And of course the value will not be set at the current Lude market rate

Never been to Coombe so no idea what my lap times would be around that strange place

At Castle Combe however I was a pretty consistant 1m17 with the internally stock ATR lump fitted. Possibly had some quicker laps but as official timing was generally not allowed I can only go on captured moments and secret timing

This is a 1m17.6 lap from a particularly warm Aug 2007 event





BenDAve
Thanks bud , but you know I'm only doing all this to stop everybody from giving up hope on the trusty Preludes. You need to keep yours and continue enjoying it.. especially as she had a bit of attention this year


jezzer
Not quite sure quite what you mean? How did you manage to get brake fluid in the steering rack guide when it's a sealed (normally) component?
Do you mean you've removed PAS and added brake fluid into the valve body?
Rack, pinion and guide are all within the part known as the "steering gearbox" and should all be greased.
Valve body, cylinder sleeve and piston are the parts normally filled with PAS fluid which is pumped to them via the lines from the PAS pump and resevoir.


Dave
Cheers bud
Again, to me I don't see these things as anything especially amazing... it's just thinking outside the box, putting thoughts into practice and coming up with solutions which don't cost a fortune that I enjoy. I'm sure many of the things I'm "finding" have been done before after all the 4th gen is an 18 year old product now it's just that maybe alot of this "stuff" has not been posted or talked about before. Who knows?


Kris
Well remembered !!
I guess the Merc that Pete mentioned was timed from a standing start however? If not then it's pig slow
Shame we only ever got to pit the Lude and the Civic against each other once on track... was properly hoping to get out there again for a finished Lude and full built Civic battle royal
You ready to have a go when it's done? Are you man enough?


Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

Another vid of Richie racing at combe

8)

Feeling like sh1t today so have stayed away from the workshop... not to mention the fact that the missus would have probably been a tad upset about me wanting to spend valentines day with my race car rather than her

Nucleustylz- (sorry I'm s#!t at remembering names...is it Rob?)

Holy chromium plated subframes Batman !!!
In my mind that is just awful but hey if it's a show car then I guess it's each to their own and I'm sure it'll add points. Different strokes and all that.

Just looping the lines is a perfectly acceptable way of junking the PAS and getting all the feedback you could want.
You must make sure though that with all the lines disconnected you work the steering rack from lock to lock to pump out pretty much all the fluid from the rack otherwise it will be overly heavy. Once you've done that and looped the lines there will still be enough residual fluid inside for lubrication.
I think the Yanks are being paranoid (as usual) and leaving the rack full of fluid and then T-ing the lines with the resevoir as a way of reducing steering effort (over a full and sealed rack). Personally I'd say don't overcomplicate things like that as it will still end up being heavier than an empty rack - drain rack, loop the lines...jobs a good un. Don't worry about wear..mine was done way back in 2004 with no adverse effects to wear.

Be sure to keep us updated of your s/charger install

Don't think I'll comment on the RHD conversion

I feel ya - had two more Volks to strip down to refurb today but with Valentines day, I thought she'd hang, draw and quarter me!

Yeah that chroming is OTT indeed - you should see the rest of his build, it's crazy. Tis a show car but it's pretty stripped and runs a H2B engine on throttle bodies.
I'll find ya'll the link.

Thanks for clearing my mind of worries - as you say half the time it's people overthinking things or commenting without trying it out themselves. Cheers for the sound advice. I'll try it like this for now. If the engine comes out one day I may strip down and do as you have done. But the looped lines will suffice for now.

Will keep you updated on my progress bud - I havn't updated the project thread for a while - I've mostly been collecting parts while it's sat in my no space to work garage. March it's going to be stored at my friends bodyshop to get going.



And yep - well remembered - Rob it is!

This part, i'm pretty sure thats it, with the outer nut (22mm) and inner part.

I took it off, because i had a 4WS rack so wanted to take the sensor off which is not needed on the 2WS rack.

I was cleaning out the gearbox with brake fluid then thought i'd clean the above part thinking fluid was contained in here as well. Then i realised it wasn't, but i wiped out as much as possible then put some grease it. At the moment i haven't noticed any problems, but i haven't got the car back on the road yet. So if its going to be a problem i will buy another rack.

Bloody good work Rich!!

Glad to see a new set of updates.

Very interesting indeed

Jezer
Ah I see what you've done and how you managed to do it now, couldn't understand how you'd managed to get brake fluid in that part of the rack even with a mistake.
Just so long as you cleaned out as much as you could and then stuffed a load of grease in there afterwards then you should be fine.


Dino
You know me mate...it'll always be interesting stuff
Still toying with the idea of selling the Green one ... but I know I'll kick myself if I do.

i'v hear about the green one? so any pics?

I've got a pic of it, but i'll tell you now, Rich will not appreciate me posting it, let's just say it was in need of a little TLC due to the weather at the time.

I must have spent the best part of 2 hours reading this thread and all I can say is wow!

The attention to detail is second to none.

Nothing more I can say except: 'Can I have the paint code for the Aston Grey please? Seeing as mine is about to go to the body shop and all that...'

Ste

This car is absolutly phenomenal. Gobsmacked as to the quality of work, Im building a track prepped eg shell but damn im gunna need to up my game this has taken 'clean' and 'function' to another level. Well done.

Come on Rich, what's been happening recently Also, do you have a front OS ABS sensor?

x2.

Plus i hope your car is running well Dave. Still is the best road legal 4th gen in the country. Richies is the best race bred.

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Sorry guys not been on here much at all recently, pressures of overbusy workshop, business expansion plans, weekends away with racing and a couple of stag do's to let what's left of my hair down

There has been believe it or not quite a bit of progress all things considered, some of it won't be posted yet as it's only kind of half done to allow mock ups.
Stock block H22 has been fully built, head ported etc etc, COP (coil on plug) converted using Honda OEM parts, custom breather system etc etc. Now half stripped again awaiting a few items and time to carry out the final button up. This is the development/test mule

Dash has been superlightened, carbon fettled and installed - now to be removed and flocked before final fitment - major time consuming task that was !!

100% custom 1 off never been done before 305mm rear brake conversion using a combination of custom caliper mount, "special " discs, 4th gen carrier, dc5 caliper and a bit of fettling

Plus a host of other stuff that's not even worthy of any real mention right now.

I'll update properly with pics soon... I promise


.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

[smilie=hate-drool.gif]

All is sounding gooooooood!

Can't wait to see some pics. The dash and brakes in particular sound very interesting!

Engine coils and breather system sound inspiring too.

Your lude is going to be amazing when it's complete.

Yay, you're still around

Looking forward, as always, to the updates, Rich.
Particularly interested in the COP conversion with all Honda parts

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY

Yeah I'm still around unfortunately for you lot lol

COP conversion is kinda ghetto, fairly simple, fiendish and function over form. Wanted to keep it all honda for the pure ease of getting hold of parts in a hurry if the need should arise...plus I have plenty of spares already

Did I mention the custom single wiper conversion which gives a full screen sweep and saves me just shy of 2kg. Best of all it only cost me a grand total of £2.50

Oh and the custom front upper camber adjuster tubular wishbones which I've finished prototyping and now may make it into full production

I know in reality it still doesn't sound like an awful lot of progress but believe me there is alot of planning and research that goes into some of this stuff...

I'll try and get some pic updates up over the weekend but there will be a few things that I don't really want to disclose just yet

Cheers
Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

So you didn't get buried by volcanic ash then?

Looking forwards to seeing the progress on this dude. All sounds soooo awesome, as always

2kg weight saving for £2.50. Id like to know more. Plus single wiper means less maintenance as you only need one wiper blade.

2kg weight saving for £2.50. Id like to know more. Plus single wiper means less maintenance as you only need one wiper blade.

And a single point of failure

And a single point of failure

This is a very valid point of course and something that I ummmed and arrred about for a little while...but in the end I just couldn't resist the 2kg saving and the fact that it looks cool

Wipers on a race car are last resort anyway, screens are heavily Rain-X'd inside and out (for misting) so pretty much anything other than dirt or torrential rain just clears itself at speed.

Yup all valid points, and i'd do the same myself if i was racing it

Oh and the custom front upper camber adjuster tubular wishbones which I've finished prototyping and now may make it into full production

any pics and prices?

Oh and the custom front upper camber adjuster tubular wishbones which I've finished prototyping and now may make it into full production

any pics and prices?

yeah and details of the coil on plug conversion lol

Oh and the custom front upper camber adjuster tubular wishbones which I've finished prototyping and now may make it into full production

any pics and prices?

yeah and details of the coil on plug conversion lol

a full write up is in order i think

I always look forward to your write-ups Rich, but without pictures this is just plain teasing!

Sounds like she's coming along nicely mate! I did have a peak at the car when I was up last week. Looking uber sexy and the interior looked awesome and stripped! Very cool! What are you aiming for bhp wise on the engine for this?

any pics and prices of tubular wishbones ?

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Bloody impatient lot :p All in good time
I'd sooner get jobs finished and then write it up rather than do bits at a time.

No prices on the tubular wishbones yet, won't know that until costs have been worked out for production runs. As mentioned, these have been prototyped and I will be entering into stage 2 prototyping soon before setting into production. Things like this need to be right and can't be rushed.

As usual, I have had limited time on the car and the focus of work has been moving around different areas of the build, some on the car and some off the car.

What are you aiming for bhp wise on the engine for this?

Depends on which engine

A) Development and testing mule - Stock(ish) block H22a8 (full balanced, no balance shafts, oil gallery fettling), lots of head work, full Supertech valvetrain, cams ( ), ITB's and other associated bits n bobs. Circa 260 ish BHP expected.
Current status - Half built, headwork in progress - may strip again as further thoughts have been had for improvements.

**************** EDIT ******************
The "development" engine as mentioned above actually got finished and was put to good use in my ITR race car. Basically as described above but without the ITBs and running with OEM dizzy setup. Actual figures were 275bhp and 189ft/lb of torque. Utterly reliable it performed all season in the VTEC Challenge race series faultlessly.
************** / EDIT ******************

B) Big banger - Darton sleeved, billet stroker crank, huge bore, forged rods, high comp CP pistons, no balance shafts, lightened block, massive head work, oversized valves, cams ( ) no VTEC, ITBs and various other bits n bobs. Circa 300bhp and tons of torque.
Current Status - Built and tested with very promising results around a year or so ago. Now stripped and stored with further development planned.

Both engines will run with their own dedicated gearbox both with differing ratios and final drives to emphasise their strong points. Both with KAAZ 1.5way multiplate LSDs


To top off the workload still to do on the Lude and obviously the customer work I have no gone and aquired myself another race car build to get done . Still gonna be H powered but will be very much a super tight budget build with very few niceities. Sucker for punishment I suppose


Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

B) Big banger - Darton sleeved, billet stroker crank, huge bore, forged rods, high comp CP pistons, no balance shafts, lightened block, massive head work, oversized valves, cams ( ) no VTEC, ITBs and various other bits n bobs. Circa 300bhp and tons of torque.

Bag it, I'll take it.

show me the colour of your money Ben

so when we going to see this COP system?!

When I'm good and ready
Thing is it will only be fully completed once the engine, wiring looms and Motec are installed. I can show the basics but it won't tell you how to do it all and also it's not like it's going to be a simple conversion for anyone thinking of doing it to a stock Lude

stand alone engine management will be required and if i am correct hondata cant do COP either

Exactly... although having said that AEM do a kit which makes life a little easier - coupled with some MSD components I believe it could be configured with some “electrickery” for OEM or Hondata. Not really much point though..and works out too expensive.

its been tried a million and 1 times.... standard honda ecu which use a dizzy cant be modified for COP... AEM do a plug and play for there OWN ecu (which is what i will be running) as do many other stand alone ECU manufactors

Even like Tony Palo's CAM TRIGGER KIT (T1 Developments) wont work on standard honda ECU

these systems will only work on stand alone engine management..... Hondata is not classed as a stand alone as it still uses the basic ignition pick up and send as the stock ecu would use.

TBH I don't even know how standard or Hondata ecus got dragged into this... I'd already stated that I'm using Motec with my setup.

Anyway, it could in fact still be done but it would need the addition of a sequential triggering device which can be run via camshaft (much like a distributor would), this would then interface with a readily available CDi to create the coil outputs.
Alot of tricky work just to make it work with something that was never designed to cope with it and is obviously limited because of that.

i was just 'clearing' the fact that it wont work on honda ECU's as in your previous posts you didnt mention you were using motec and some members thought u had done COP with stock honda parts on a honda ecu....

Thing is it will only be fully completed once the engine, wiring looms and Motec are installed. I can show the basics but it won't tell you how to do it all and also it's not like it's going to be a simple conversion for anyone thinking of doing it to a stock Lude

I understand where you are coming from Nathan but I've also never stated at any time that I had a finished COP system... all I've ever said is that I've done some development work on my own ghetto COP system using original Honda parts and sensors. I never mentioned the ECU side of things back when I first posted that because I hadn't made a firm decision on whether I was using Motec, Autronic (again) or Vipec (all of which are more than capable). Further to that I (maybe wrongly) assumed that people would realise I'd not be using a stock ECU as it was already on Autronic right from the start.
My bad

You two make me laugh!

I love how you both "debate" almost in your own unfathomable language

lol....
we are so sad

You two make me laugh!

I love how you both "debate" almost in your own unfathomable language

i was gonna get involved then thought.... f**k that!

If someone jumped in the middle it would be like two fearsome lions are battling it out in the jungle and one antelope came in between them..

Is that another one of your turd related jokes Nitin?... Cos I don't think it's appropriate [-X

Is there much advantage running COP, or is it purely more reliable than a dizzy?

Would it not be worse for a single COP to fail whilst ragging it, than if the dizzy were to completely fail?

Amazing build! [smilie=hate-tunz.gif]

i was thinking of running cop but desided to run a wasted spark set up as wanting to get rid of the dizzy

.