Never Ending Story... Prelude race car build.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

Update 5 – Originally Posted - Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:29 pm

http://preludeuk.forumup.com/viewtopic. ... =preludeuk


Andy from Custom Fabrications came along to Silverstone on Saturday to watch us in the Nippon Challenge and have a look around - We were there running/supporting 5 of our customer cars out of the Performance Autoworks pit garages.
He liked what he saw and enjoyed a rare day off from work to relax and watch some racing....I say relax and enjoy the racing but as usual with him he couldn't help himself from scanning over the cars and shaking his head at how much extra weight he could get out of some of the cars he saw around

Anyway, while he was there he bluetoothed a few more pics over to my phone...so here they are


As you'll notice from these pics the cage main cage is now out of the car. It is being TiG welded in sections and having lightweight reinforcing wraps fabricated and welded into position. Meanwhile, the rear suspension brace work and reinforcing plates have been finished.




Factory strut tower/inner arch reinforcing skin still in place in this pic but new fabricated reinforcing plate for cage pickups and rear suspension brace in place.






Factory strut tower/inner arch skin sections removed and some weight reduction work to the inner c pillar. The square cut out to the right of the arch will be re-plated neatly just cos Andy didn't like the look of what was there








Rear suspension brace work complete. As can be seen it consists of a brace between the two strut towers with diagonals down to a reinforcing tube which is welded to the inside of the chassis cross member and also has reinforcing tubes running down through the x-member into the suspension pickup points. This will all eventually be finished off with the new flat floor section.
This brace work will allow suspension loadings to be transmitted up through the whole cage structure rather than just into the shell, it will of course also eliminate any unwanted flex.
I think you'll agree that the close up of the welded joins speaks for itself with regards to the quality of their work.










The two side sections of cage out of the car with the door bars welded and new fabricated wraps tacked into place.






That is all for now - see if you can guess how happy I am with the work so far

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

I'm sure lots of people would be happy to only pay £5 a time for some passenger rides.... it'll cost that in fuel per 2 laps of somewhere like Combe alone !!

Perhaps a sponsorship deal with PUK members to help cover the racing costs would be a thought. Members that are part of it get a free passenger session on a trackday and PUK gets a decent sized logo or two on the car.

Hell I'd be up for sponsoring and stuff of the like!! If I wasn't selling my Prelude I'd be on my way to see you with my credit card to get a turbo build and S300 and plastering it with stickers of Performance Autoworks (if there's any space left )

But didn't realise that you'd go through fuel that fast though!! But I've only ever done dirt track racing in a mate's back yard, and never proper track racing so don't know Still say people would gladly pay £15, £25 etc... for a couple of SCRAP laps!


I am really impressed with the work that those guys are doing there though to be honest, and may very well hit them up for some custom fabrication done on the new project vehicle when I get it Bet you're totally over the moon more than that smiley can convey with how it's going!!

hey buddy, are they using T45 tube or CDS? also what size?

A daft question:

Why steel for the roll cage? Why not ally tubing? or a combo? I understand you need to weld on to the chassis and sub frames but to fabricate an ali cage and bolt to steel would of saved more weight wouldnt it? I like the welded rear strut

And yesah this is one kick arse project. I bow down to the masters [smilie=hate-hail.gif]

Rollcages take and have to take a lot of the strain, particularly with this one where it basically is the chassis under racing strain.

I don't think ally would be strong enough for that.

especially if your conforming to msa regs

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Crazy -

I'm gonna hold you that sponsorship promise
Yeah, fuel used during a hard driven few laps on track is frightening, quite often (depending on the circuit) get no better than 6-8mpg or 1.5-1.75 tanks full per 150 miles on track.
That's all of course before you consider tyre and brake wear....slicks don't come cheap I can assure you of that

Extremely happy with the work being done..but to be honest I was never in any doubt. I know what these boys have done in the past and what they are currently working on so quality was always going to be 100%

If you want to get in touch with Custom Fabrications about any work you might want doing you can do so through me at the moment.




Nathan -

I had a pretty lengthy discussion with Custom Fabrications about which route to take with regards to using T-45 or CDS for the cage build, both have their pros and cons.
Most people (me included before Andy @ CF explained) believe that a T45 cage is much stronger than a CDS cage...this is not strictly true (explained below). With some discussion about reletive weights and reletive costs we both came to the same conclusion that CDS was the way to go for the main parts of the cage and then use T45 in other areas such as some of the bracing tubes. We can then find other areas to reduce weight.
Tube size for the main hoop is 45 x 2.5mm and the rest of the bars are 40 x 2mm as per the minimum requirements set out in the MSA Blue Book (section C(c)27 )

For those that don't know but are interested :-
T45 has a higher tensile strength to weight ratio over CDS which means that you can fabricate the cage using a thinner gauge (wall thickness), this can result in a weight saving over the whole fully built cage of between 10 and 15%... in real terms you would expect to see a saving of around 5 kg over a 35kg CDS cage. The cost is significantly higher for a cage made in T45 however so you have to weigh up the cost vs weight to see what fits your needs most.
As a side note, although T45 has a higher tensile strength over CDS which means it is much stronger in tension or shear however, due to the fact that regulations allow a reduced wall thickness it then means that a T45 cage is no better than CDS in terms of actual strength in compression or buckling forces which of course are the forces most likely to be generated in an accident.
With that in mind T45 and CDS cages have just about the same level of overall strength and in some case the CDS is more resistant to the kind of crushing/twisting forces experienced in a major impact.



Bri -

Aluminium cages are about as much use as an umbrella in a hurricane

Seriously, no question is daft question if you don't know the answer

Aluminium cages are strictly prohibited from all forms of motorsport (article C(c)43 of the Blue book). Putting it simply the variation in material quality and it's ability to deal with crush/bending forces are leagues apart from any steel.
Any ally cage that you see...ever..will be a "show cage". These are hateful things and will do more harm to the occupants than good in the event of an accident. The only thing these are even remotely useful for is ...errrrr.....well I'm struggling to think of something

It was a fair question and something that plagues all race car builders... finding the optimum balance between strength and weight. The more you want of one and the less of the other the bigger the costs involved
You eventually arrive at a point where the benefits do not justify the costs.


Hope that's answered those questions ok


Thanks
Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

yea im going to use CDS tube aswell, T45 is damn expensive aswell and like you found out, CDS does just the same job.
i dont have to use as think a wall as you do, i can get away with 2mm.
ill use 45mm for the main hoop and main hoop to "A" sections, rear strut section and the rest can be made from 38mmx2mm CDS.

i must admit tho, i want to brace my rear end like yours, simple cause that looks damn awesome!

tell u what Buzz, GIVE ME A CALL ABOUT CF, very tempted to get them to do the work
07799533465

Awesome work Richy, I'm loving the way this project is coming along. Great idea on the sponsorship thing, especially if we can get a couple of PUK stickers on there (I was gonna ask about that, but didn't want to appear too cheeky ).

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Nathan -

I must have been bloody tired or something when I posted that last night . Have edited the post now but it should have read as follows

"Tube size for the main hoop is 45 x 2.5mm and the rest of the bars are 40 x 2mm as per the minimum requirements set out in the MSA Blue Book (section C(c)27 ) "

So all in all pretty similar spec to what you need for yours in terms of cage materials.

The rear suspension bracework I'm really pleased with and has turned out exactly as I imagined it would


Taffy -
Sorry I feel bad calling you that all the time It's John isn't it?

Cheers for the comments, the car is going to take a while to finish but rest assured the enthusiasm is growing by the day...once I get it back with the cagework all finished and painted there'll be no stopping me then.

Sponsorship deal might have to be something we talk about... obviously in my biased opinion I think it could really be made to work. Good for me get some help from the members and good for the club to get some publicity. Everyone will fee like they are part of the racing and could even go as far as things like free entry tickets to a lucky winner for each race as a kind of raffle type thing.
A little way off that yet but worth some thought




.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

Rich, it's not John

Taffy's another one of us Daves i'm afraid

what made me think it was John

Bloody Dave's everywhere... has always been the case with Ludes it seems... half the owners out there are called Dave
Still it least it means I won't forget again


Good to speak to you Nathan, quite a deadline you've got with yours... I've got no choice but to be a little more relaxed with my finish date. Having said that, when it comes back from fab it'll be all systems go for sure....... my missus is gonna hate me more than she already does

PM on it's way

Yup, it's not just me who thinks there are a ton of Dave's and ludes then, i thought it was strange when i joined PUK

Welcome to the Republic of Dave

God the Dave's are taking over the world!!!!

Bloody hell man, that is about as low as a Hummer!!

I know slicks ain't cheap - used to run Mickey T slicks on a Pro Street Camaro a mate and I used to have and I'm just grateful he was as loaded as he was

Definitely sounds like they're a good company to have do the work then

And when I finish this, I'll be writing you a PM

Oh, and I thought of a good use of an aluminum roll cage - inflicting great amounts of pain and distress as they bend in an accident, stopping you from getting out the car

Had a mate with a Chevy race tuned V-8 in his Mk2 Escort, and it ended up going up an embankment on the A2 and rolling several times and he managed to drive it back to the garage purely because the steel roll cage was actually holding the entire car together!!!!

I thought I noticed a lot of other Dave's Clearly its fate, the car of choice for Daves..

Rich this is going to be brilliant once completed!! Awsome work
See what you mean about the difference in the cages its like a maze. That is alot of cut out metal aswell dont think i will be going to that level on mine.

What do you think the total weight of the car will be in the end??

Keep it up mate

Cheers Jon, yeah there's one or two additional bars in there compared to the old one
As much to do with improving the structure of the car as safety...especially as more and more metalwork is being removed.

My goal is for the all up weight of the car in race trim to be sub 1000kg...with me on board I need to be at a minimum weight of 1060kg at the end of a race to meet the regs. Obviously the more I can make the car underweight the more I can add ballast to the best possible locations during corner weighting.

Lot's more weight to come off yet from the suspension components and engine/gearbox components.

wow that's a lot of weight to lose

Damn man that TIG work looks freakin awesome!

Bet it's costing you a pretty penny!?

Car looks great man, loving the custom strengthening.

Now all you need to do is convert it to RWD

.

[Buzzonion Vtec]

REPLY


Ammo - Yeah it is alot of weight to get rid of especially when you factor in the weight being added by the cage work, but where there's a will there's a way
Getting it down to the minimum weight is my target...it's a tough target for sure and of course it's not helped by the excesses of the cage but safety and rigidity are equally as important to me as a few extra kilos. If things get that bad I'll go on a crash diet

Masta - Believe it or not, RWD was pondered over and very tempting as it was (being an old skool RWD guy) it would have severly limited my options as to where I could race it. Not many race series out there where cars are eligible if converted from FWD to RWD or 4WD. I would have wanted it to remain Honda powered so that would have meant losing the H in favour of an F20 or K20/24..... that would have been against the grain and the thought process behind building the Lude in the first place.

Costs wise...all I'll say is that I can't complain
As I mentioned earlier, we (Performance Autoworks) have entered into a good business understanding with Custom Fabrications which will benefit us both so naturally I am getting well looked after


Cheers
Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

As you said man, no point saving weight if the worst happens and you're in a crash it tears apart like a wet paper bag!!

I had wondered about the whole conversion thing because I know from the old days of mud bogger racing that they didn't like trucks where people had converted them from RWD to 4WD or even converting dualies (quite common)

Good on ya for keep with the H engine

[Buzzonion Vtec]

Update 6 – Originally Posted - Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:51 am

http://preludeuk.forumup.com/viewtopic. ... =preludeuk


Ok, it's been a few weeks since my last big update so here we go with the next instalment.

First let me point out that although this shell prep work might seem like it's taking a long time to complete it is purely because I gave Custom Fabrications free rein to work around mine in their own time so they could take on plenty of other work too. Since they started their order books have been growing rapidly with more and more high end contracts. I keep getting regular updates from the guys and promises to be at a certain stage by a certain date.... I keep telling them to chill and not worry about rushing around to get mine done to which they have been thankful.
They must be getting sick of the site of it now though as we've had a sudden spurt on


So carrying on from where we last left things...ie: all the cage build mock up done, roof removed etc etc....we're now back onto final assembly.

As usual the full dose of pictures and descriptions can be found here
04 - Custom Fabrication 01
05 - Custom Fabrication 02



But here's a few images and descriptions to keep you going


First off, with the cage removed there was some more weight reduction to be taken care off.
The B-pillars (or what remained of them from previous weight reduction) were fully removed back to the single skin of the door shut.
The A-pillars received similar treatment with the inner skin being removed
And also the central tunnel had it's 2nd skin removed.












Yet another pile of discarded Prelude soon mounted up and included steering column supports, roof bars, boot floor, tunnel skin, b-pillar and a-pillar skins amongst other things.








Now it came to the stage where the cage could be finish fitted and fully welded up in it's new permanent home.

In this first pic you can see that the windscreen lower support panel has been removed. This is to allow easier access to the scuttle area underneath for where the front turret bars were coming through from cabin to engine bay - the pics will make things a little clearer.

Main cage back in and fully welded up. Still lots of finishing details to do at this stage.






O/S cage front leg, door bars, pit prop and turret bars running up through scuttle and bulkhead.






Closer view of front cage "cluster" and turret bars - note how the cage leg has been "let" into the inner sill and then welded all around to become more integral with the car structure.
Also see how the upper turret bar is running through the scuttle panel rather than below it. This is again so that the tube can be fully integrated with the scuttle structure.















Rear diagonals of main structure.
Note more weight reduction to inner B-pillar, C-pillar and inner frame






The following few pics show the finished rear diagonals, rear turret clusters and how the rear brace work will be integrated with the new boot floor. In some respects it's gonna be a real shame to hide half of the bracework that the guys worked hard on but we've always got the pictures to remind us of what went on before the floor was welded into place.















Underside of new boot floor (not welded in place yet) and also new rear edge of chassis crossmember built up to mate up with new floor.






Most of this has already been covered during the original cage mock up build but obviously now it is all fully welded into place with "wraps" on the door bars and a couple of changes to the design.
Main change is with the "main hoop" harness bar / cross brace, this is now a curved section to allow the seat to sit even further back while still allowing sufficient room for harness adjustment. This change was decided upon when I went for a test fitting of seat position and cage clearances around me.
Note also the additional weight reduction to the front and rear roof supports by hole cutting all along them.


















With the main cage structure done it was then onto getting it tied into the main bodyshell structure with fabricated "gussets", these will be on A-pillars and B-pillars.
"Wraps" are also added to screen bar to main hoop, pit prop to door bars and possibly a few other choice places. These are used to further increase the strength of the structure and spread loads from bar to bar.


















With the cage pretty much done, Custom Fabrications turned their attention to reinforcing the engine mounts and seam welding the front end. Although originally planning to seam weld with TiG the decision was made to revert to traditional MiG for the job to save time and simply to make life easier. The quality of their MiG is as you'd expect it to be....top class.
Note - The turret bar which can be seen protruding through to the underside of the arch is cut back once fully welded into place.















Last few pics for now as basically that's pretty much all the cage and shell prep done...well withthe exception of fully welding the boot floor, removing all the sealer/underseal from underneath and off course finishing off the seam welding along the underside. It'd be a ball ache of a job on your back...so the easy answer is to spit roast it






Fingers crossed the shell should be at the paint shop this weekend ready for the next stage. Inside and engine bay painted and laquered, underside painted and roof....decided to go with getting that done a little differently as well

Once again, I've gotta say a huge thanks to Custom Fabrications for the efforts they've been putting into the car, fantastic quality work with a real eye for detail.


Thanks for looking, any questions just ask

Rich

[Buzzonion Vtec]

COMMENTS

I think I just came a little....................

That is just looking oooh soooo sexy!!! And I gotta say that is some of the best welding I've ever seen on the roll cage there, and they're hard welds to do on round bits that overlap like that too!! Very impressive work going on there.

Lovin' the new trunk floor too, just looks sooo much cleaner! Can't wait to see the rest of work done on the undercarriage

Keep up the good work man

Awesome mate, truly awesome. It's great seeing professional work like this being done This has definitely gotta be the best track prepped Lude out there

wow this is gona be a real strong lude. Cant wait to see this in the final stages.

This is stuff dreams are made of

I want to see this in the flesh!

I would have wanted it to remain Honda powered so that would have meant losing the H in favour of an F20 or K20/24..... that would have been against the grain and the thought process behind building the Lude in the first place.

Although it would be far more work than its worth, you can convert the H22 to RWD, I can think of 3 200sx's I've seen powered by H22's one of which is turbo'd. Work you've done looks awesome though!

How hard would it be to stick S2K running gera on it? Would you gain anything form doing it?

Ahh, more updates, all good Looking like a real full out job now, wish i could give this much attention to mine. Not the cage and weight saving, just the thoroughness of it all

more great work when will it end lol

I just can't wait until we get to the engine build section. From what I hear along the grapevine, it's going to be brutal

Fair play Rich, that is Fookin Awesome!!

Glad to see progress is coming along.

the seat mounts u have made are u selling these? as i want some cos my seats sit on very heavey home made box sections very heavy

see buddy, i told you they would end up MiG welding the seams.........

.