Drax's JUN Prelude: Papa Smurf edition

[Mudgey]

Thats cool, I forgot to take pictures of my H22 with ATTS when I pulled it out the car, its amazing how big the whole assembly is with the ATTS unit attached!

[Drax]

Thats cool, I forgot to take pictures of my H22 with ATTS when I pulled it out the car, its amazing how big the whole assembly is with the ATTS unit attached!

yeh from the pics those ATTS units are pretty big my block defo hasn't got one of them lol!

PART 1 UPDATE
made a start this weekend on the block; sump off, oil pickup off, oil filter off, baffle plate off, bearing cap bridge off


started to unbolt the block end to get to the oil pump for replacement but the little crank end key is firmly stuck in place to need to have another bash at that


down to the crank which im thinking ill replace the crank bearings as well as piston rod bearings while im here, but need to borrow a dti guage(?) I think to get the crank correctly on again afterwards


while taking off the water pump, noticed it had a smidge of a crack in it....

so definitely needs replacing!

one thing I noticed when the pistons came out, the h22 ones have an oil injector style tube down the middle to spray onto the crank I think...


yet the atr ones don't not a problem im guessing?


im also considering ditching the balance shaft delete kit, leaving them in and just not putting the belt back on like 106pete has (?) but that's only a thought atm, the how-to vid for installing it doesn't seem too bad but could be a ball-ache, anyone here installed it?

a mate of mine suggested buying some dirt cheap nasty coke drink and soak some of the parts in it that have come off for cleaning like the pistons - good idea, bad idea?

[Merlin]

so maybe a mix of h22a & a7

Sorry if I have missed this info already but what stamps does the head have on it? P13 or PDE?

The ATR should be stamped like this, the stamps are on most sides of the head:



Also what date stamps does your block have on it as that will confirm what size crank shaft it has. The ATR rods are designed to fit a 55mm crank. If your crank is 50mm you will have an issue to overcome. Only late 5th gens (98+) have a 55mm crank.

[Merlin]

Looking back at a post from PAW who was comparing the PDE head to the P13, I dont think you have an ATR head, not that it makes one iota of difference. But I think you should identify all of your parts before you go any further in case it throws up any issues.

Buzzonion - Do you have any comment on the claim that the only difference between the P13 & PDE is that the PDE has a port and polish? I have read a few sites that suggest this.

There are actually a number of differences between the P13 and PDE cylinder heads but most of them are not performance related and some of them not really worth going into.

Likewise not all P13 cylinder heads are the same !!

First things first.

PDE does not have what I would call a "port and polish". The bulk of the intake and exhaust ports are the same as any other H22 head, ie left as it was cast. It's only really a little bit of finishing work at the valve throat that sets them apart (when comparing bare head to bare head).

Other differences - PDE and 98 on casted P13s (on a H22a8 block) have spring LMAs (lost motion assemblies) rather than the hydraulic plunger type of all earlier heads. The machined housings for the LMAs in these later heads are just about 1.5mm shallower than the early ones. You can still use the later "spring LMAs" in earlier heads but you need to add a flat washer to the underside of them so they work effectively.

PDE heads are unique casting to the intake side which was specifically designed to work with the ATR intake manifold design. It's designed for the unique IACV and EGR system found on the ATR. This doesn't mean that a "normal" dual stage P13 type inlet manifold can't be used on this head, it can and works very well. The ATR inlet manifold will of course also work on any of the H22 variations but requires modifications to EGR, IACV and fuel system.

Here's a couple of pics showing the differences in casting that I've just talked about

PDE Cylinder head (ATR)


P13 Cylinder head (actually a 98 spec P13 from a H22a8)



Is a PDE head worth swapping onto a H22a, a2,a5,a8 - I'd say yes if it came complete with cams and that's all you wanted to do.
But if you were going to port it and add higher spec cams (along with valve springs and retainers) then you may as well just use your existing P13 head (of whatever year).



God... I'm such a geek

http://preludeuk.forumup.com/viewtopic. ... =preludeuk

[wurlycorner]

down to the crank which im thinking ill replace the crank bearings as well as piston rod bearings while im here, but need to borrow a dti guage(?) I think to get the crank correctly on again afterwards

Definitely replace the crank bearings while you have it all apart.
Why do you think you need a dti to refit the crank? Is there anything different to other engines I've worked on, where you just place the plain bearing shells into the housings, drop the crank in, refit the cap and bolt down - there's nothing that can be adjusted.
Or are you meaning to check the current roundness of the crank journals?

one thing I noticed when the pistons came out, the h22 ones have an oil injector style tube down the middle to spray onto the crank I think...

Does that hole in the bearing shell actually correspond to a hole in the case on the rod, or has someone before maybe refitted the shells the wrong way round? i.e. that hole should be on the cap half of the big end, rather than the rod half of the big end. (or vice versa with the ATR rod of course)

[Drax]

ill check out the head stamp & date when I get home I have a separate ATR head that has had a mild p&p done so I wont be using the head from this engine anyway but its worth checking.

I remember multiple posts about the 50-55mm crank differences but I seem to find people who have upgraded to atr pistons in their h22 have not swapped the crank, maybe they've kept the h22 rods and just put the atr pistons on them?
again ill check when I get home.

this is why im posting these questions because as you say, I need to check what I have before going too far thanks merlin

wurly; crank bearing replacement it is, thanks mate! I was told by two mechanic mates id probably need a dti guage to refit the crank, but your asking the wrong person why lol I can ask them why they mentioned it lol

pretty sure the holes correspond with the rod but again ill check

[Drax]

manual shows h22 rod bearings with holes in them

[wurlycorner]

Yep, shows holes on both half of the shells there.
It's very common to have oil holes in plain bearing shells, because that's the only way to ensure that oil gets properly into/right through the bearing.

Strange that an H22A would have holes but they'd have removed them on ATR H22's?
Is the ATR manual available, to check whether they should also have the oil holes or not?

EDIT:
Stolen from here thanks Nafe

The cap half of ATR shells don't have the holes at least (but can't see the rod half)

[Drax]

EDIT:
Stolen from here thanks Nafe

The cap half of ATR shells don't have the holes at least (but can't see the rod half)

lol!!!!! they are the exact pistons that are in my garage - I bought them from him at the national meet
no holes in the atr rods for sure, I double checked last night.

looks like the head is defo h22 standard jdm as stamp says p13


block number (made?) im guessing


p13 on block as well


whereas my p&p head is defo ATR as it has PDE on mani side


and a7 valves


& retainers

which are both going to come out for the skunk2 ones

another PDE stamp on inlet side


and James will be using vtec as soon as he's old enough... even if it's in a go kart


oh and both the h22 rods (which have p13 on them) and atr rods (which have PDE on them) are 50mm diameter so looks like no issues there, the 55mm bit must be a different part of the atr crank.

[wurlycorner]

lol!!!!! they are the exact pistons that are in my garage - I bought them from him at the national meet ;

ok well that doesn't help confirm or deny what should be there, then...