Scottish independence. Discuss.

Post by **indigolemon** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:00 pm

Fife was once one of the major Pictish kingdoms, known as Fib, and is still commonly known as the Kingdom of Fife within Scotland.

Wonder if we should go for independence too

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:02 pm

spain and basque are one piece of land. the islands are just that. Water makes a hell of a difference to weather you get your own space or you have to do what the local bully says.

I think there is a clear line of reasoning for the islands. they have been ruled by westminster far longer than edinburgh and seem quite happy with it. why would they throw in with a people they dont hold cultural ties to when it would not do them financial good?

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:07 pm

@indigo: this is maybe an issue that will come up? what if a few areas that used to be independent of scotland wish to once again leave its shadow? Fife with border crossings

89 UKDM BA4 4WS (resto job!) · Post by **wurlycorner** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:43 pm

I haven't read all the thread yet (not got time) so no doubt I'm making an outdated/innapropriate/irrelevant/repeat post, but, meh...

I don't think of myself as English, I think of myself as British.
The only time I think of myself as English really, is at sporting events because there's no other choice and most of the time, it's embarrassing and I'd much rather be supporting a British team (as you do for the Olympics/in athletics in general, say). And yes, I did put my money where my mouth is on that one btw - e.g. I forked out to go and watch the GB football team play at Cardiff during the Olympics whereas I don't (these days) go and watch the England team that these days really couldn't give a bloody monkeys that they're playing for the 'national' side (minor exceptions like Gerard aside).

But I digress... In general, this nationality stuff is just bollocks if you ask me and independance for Scotland would be a pointless backwards step when, generally, Europe is moving towards acting more cohesively together.

If the Scots want to go it alone though, so be it, let 'em. No hard feelings and good luck to them. But really, meh... Waste of money just to satisfy some blokes small-minded personal agenda that's kept him in good lunches over the last few years.

Why can't we all just be British and be happy with it?

(Edited for typo's

)

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:50 pm

^^^^exactly. at the Euro meet i chose to put LLL james from U.K. on my name badge. My mates decided they wanted English on theirs. i couldn't see the point.

@BBMC: so what if the uk/westminster told scotland that there was no honest legal route for them to get a vote? Why should scotland stand in the way of the islands when its just been given the exact same chance to decide its future?

BMCC · Post by **BMCC** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:23 pm

lewd lude lover wrote:@BBMC: so what if the uk/westminster told scotland that there was no honest legal route for them to get a vote? Why should scotland stand in the way of the islands when its just been given the exact same chance to decide its future?

The yes vote in Scotland gives the Scottish government the legal right to renegotiate the treaty of Union (which was denied to the people of Scotland in the first place). The Scottish government have stated that they would let Westminster know of the Scottish intention to withdraw from the Union if they get the vote. The 2 governments would then have to decide if this is acceptable. Westminster have said that if the Scottish people vote for independence it would be granted. That is my understanding.

Now the Isles question is a very different one. The treat of union in 1707 was between 2 sovereign nations. The Isles of Orkney and Shetland were never a nation they have always been a part of a nation (Denmark/Norway & then Scotland for over 500 yrs), just like other parts of Scotland. These Isles were given to Scotland and are part of Scotland there is no treaty between Scotland and the Isles. They are Scottish pure and simple. If a region of England decided to leave England would England allow it? No not a chance. Why should Scotland?

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:45 pm

BMCC wrote: If a region of England decided to leave England would England allow it?

Um... I kinda think thats whats going on isn't it? A minority section of the national population that claims cultural and historical rights of indepenence is being allowed to decide upon its future. 'England' or rather westminster is allowing scotland to vote and standing by it.. Whats your point?

If anything the islands would have more rights of soverignty as they are actually islands, whereas scotland is attached to england. wouldn't they?

My point is what if they decide to join the U.K as member states? Like the other islands have? All the other islands are quite happy so whats to say they dont pitch in the same? You cant offer points of the fact that they have always belonged to someone else. Thats what got us into this whole mess in the first place

have a look into the movement gathering steam for cornwall to be given autonomy. its not just north of the border this is being given air.

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:04 pm

the isle of mann has its own government why couldn't the shetlands and Orkneys?

Post by **lewd lude lover** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:12 pm

exactly. and they would have the land rights to 20% of the united kingdoms oil/gas and could become a massive renewable energy provider off the back of that with the weather they get.

Low tax to invite corporations to set up shop and before you know it the islanders are all driving bentley's and eating salmon.

There is really no reason for them to stay in a scottish scotland and scotgov couldnt do anything could they? I mean its not like they will send in the troops

would they

BMCC · Post by **BMCC** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:15 pm

No my point is that Scotland was a sovereign nation when the treaty of union was negotiated of which the isles were and are a part of. As such now that we again have a government of sorts it has been decided by the Scottish and Uk governments that should Scotland vote to leave then the treaty of union can be renegotiated with the Uk government stating that it would stand by the Scottish decision to leave the union. It was a treaty between 2 sovereign nations. The other alternative if the vote was yes and the Uk government said no would be war. It happened in the US when the southern states decided that they were going to leave the union. You would like war between the nations? It is certainly an option for the Scottish government, however unlikely they would be to take that decision.

Now the isles are part of Scotland have been for 500 yrs. If you take it that Scotland and England died that day in 1707 and Britain was born then fair enough but that is a minority view in Scotland. We are Scottish and British our Scottish nation goes on.

There might be some form of autonomy in the isles and I'm all for that but it will be in a Scottish context only. You argument that parts of Scotland can vote to stay in the union is i'm afraid a non starter and the Scottish government would have none of it as it is a threat to the viability of the Scottish nation should that be the will of the Scottish people. Scotland is one nation and the nation will speak in a yrs time for better or worse. The region vote might come out but I doubt it.

Anyway I can see this topic becoming polarised and argumentative and for the sake of peace on the forum I'll speak no more on this subject.